I have been reading a lot of books and web sites on string theory. It all seems very interesting, all these extra dimension and so fourth. I was just curious, it is supposed that these extra dimensions could be real, I have yet to read how the first three dimensions that we take for granted in this universe are real physical things. I know that the term dimension is used in plotting locations and trajectories of objects in space on paper, but are they real physical things that exist in the real universe?


  Thank you.
 
  Steve

You say that the first three dimensions are real, I would like to know how they are real physical things.  Every reference you can find will say in so many words that the first three spatial dimensions are concepts used to describe the location of a point in conceptual space.  I have yet to see any reference to the first three dimensions being real physical things.  Trust me I have looked high and low, I have been on other blogs like this.  Nobody has been able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the first three spatial dimensions are nothing more than a concept used to describe a method of locating a point or object in conceptual space.  Please if you have any reference or experience of a real physical dimension I would greatly appreciate it.


Steve

You say that dimensions are defined as degrees of freedom.  Where did you read this definition?  I have never seen it written that dimensions are degrees of freedom.

Just for a minute, suspend all that you have been told about what dimensions are and look around you in the physical world and decide for yourself what you think about the physical reality of a dimension.

  You said that they are real, how did you come to that idea?  Is that what you have been taught?  Or did you discover this through your own experience?  You seem to think they are real, so I say again, based on what reference or experiment?  It seems like such an easy question to answer since everyone just assumes that the first three dimensions are real.  Maybe that is all that it is, an unexamined assumption.   

  Steve

Dimensions are real in what way?  When I look around I do not see or sense in any way these "real" physically tangible dimensions.  Describe to me how you know when you encounter a dimension.

Don't you think that if these first three dimensions were real someone would have gotten their hands on one of these dimensions and tore it apart to see what makes it tick.  There has never been any experiments done on dimensions.  Why do you suppose that science has left these things you say are real untouched?  Don't you think that the string theorist would do experiments on dimensions to see if this leads to finding extra dimensions?

Also, show me a reference book that states that the first three spatial dimensions are real.  If someone were to ask you to show proof of the moon, a computer, or air, would you not show them the object in question or show them the reference that descibes the qualities of the thing?

  Steve

So what are you saying, I have to make my own definitions because there are none to be found in any reference book?

You have gone from saying dimensions are real, to telling me to make my own definition for dimensions.  If they are real someone else would have already written a definition of how dimensions are real, but no one has.

Again, If these first three dimensions are real why has no one done any experiments on these physical things?

If I was to ask you if the moon was a real thing, you would have plenty of references, pictures, definitions, and many other obvious facts.  So why the problem with showing in some way that dimensions are real.  They must be real in some way.

I am going to assume that you are not just imagining that the first three dimensions are real, so what information are you working from that convinced you that dimensions are real.  Maybe that will clear things up.

Steve

What are you saying?  I ask you to tell me how dimensions are real, and you tell me to create something new.  Where is the science in that?  If dimensions are real why would anybody have to come up with something new.

Is that what you decided to do, forego scientific observation and analysis, and  just come up with something new.

Why is it that this is so hard to answer?  If the first three dimensions are real physical things then there should be some undeniable proof or observation. 

Look I am not trying to attack your understanding of what you believe dimensions to be.  But unless there is some scientific evidence of the physical existence of these dimensions, then that is all it is…. A belief.

What makes you think that the first three dimensions are real physical things?  I do want to come across as though I am questioning your personal understanding of what dimensions are.  I am just asking a question of a supposed real existing thing.  This question goes out to everyone who wants to talk about this topic.

Steve

Which of my senses am I doubting?

Where is the physical proof?

It seems that I am not the only one that is "doubting" my senses.  There is no scientific reference that states that the first three spatial dimensions are real physical things.

Where is the scientific proof?  You say they exist, O.K.  What evidence are you working off of.  This should be as easy as pointing out the physical evidence of all the other real things in this universe.

I have asked a very basic and simple question, yet you seem to be evasive in your answers.

Where is a reference that states dimensions are real physical things?

What are these dimensions made of?  Matter?  Energy?  Do they have a wavelenght?  What would you compare them to?  Dimensions are like______.

What is the science behind these physical things?


Lets assume that these dimensions are real.  That means that they existed before man.  Then along came man and one day man discovered these physical things we now call dimensions.

Where is the history on these dimensions?  who researched them, what did this person call these physical things before they were called dimensions?  What did other cultures call these things.  Where is it written that these things have been around since the dawn of time?

Do these things age?  Decay?  These are some of the questions I would think that you would have asked yourself. 

If they are real physical things then where is any small hint that they do?

Maybe you can relate dimensions to space or time or something else that would make it easier to explain.

Steve

O.K, if we can see them then they are physical is some way,  Right?

If these dimensions are physical than there would be a definition of these dimensions being real.  There is none.

If these dimensions are real then they would be able to exert some sort of influence on other objects.
So, how come there is no mathematical equation that takes into account the influence that dimensions have on moving objects?  If these dimensions are real then they have been around since the beginning of time, so you would think that Sir Isaac Newton would have come across this “visible” physical thing we now call a dimension and included it in his equations on motion, Right? 

Where are these  such equations that include the influence dimensions have on moving objects.

So, there is no reference that states dimensions are real physical things, and there is no math equation that includes the influence that these dimensions have on the moving objects.  Yet these dimensions are everywhere and we can see them.  I find this interesting, how about you?


Steve

firstly, in one of your earlier posts steve,
i would like to state that its intuitively obvious that dimensions arent physical themselves, but rather they describe physical space. That doesnt need to be said, neither do we need to prove the existence of dimensions.

Before we considered spacetime, mankind knew we could walk forwards, backwards, left and right, and we could jump.
Without calling these dimensions, we already knew what the concept meant.

the fourth dimension i understand it, is time, but not absolute time as we used to understand it.
gravity distorts both the temporal dimension of time, and the other three spatial dimensions.

As i understand it, curved paths called geodesics are the shortest distance between two points in 4D, much like a straight line in 3D.

Feel free to correct me, I am just an inquisitive, opinionated person.

In our everyday world, there are four dimensions - three spacial and one time. A dimension is just a parameter. Time is a way of measuring how objects change, especially in the spacial dimensions. According to unification theories, there could be as many as 7 more dimensions. String theory requires 10 dimensions, whilst M-theory requires 11. Apart from one - time, all the rest are spacial. Physicists say we don't experience the other dimensions because they are too small and are curled up. Imagine that you live in a universe that is cube shaped. You can see in 3 dimensions. However, shrink the width of the cube to a tiny ammount. Now you can only see in roughly 2 dimensions, the width dimension is far too small for you too look across. Alternately, for anyone who have read 'flatland', this book decribed a square who lives in 2 dimensions. He can only see along the 2 dimensions. Anybody who is in another dimension and doesn't pass along the 2D plane, woul dnot be seen by the square. You would need to be able to see in three dimensions to see the 3 dimensions. You could apply this to higher dimensions as well. Gravity distorts all of these dimensions. Theorietically, if you went inside a black hole you would be converted to a singularitary (in 0 dimensions) and time would be stopped to you. The value of a dimension would be dependant on where you were and how much gravity there was.

Last edited by Hoof47 (2007-11-25 20:26:28)

Nicholas wrote:

Dimensions are defined as degrees of freedom. I can say nothing more than that.

Mitch Raemsch

When you say degrees of freedom, I tend to agree with you. I myself have never found any information proving that any dimension is real or a real physical thing. All I've been able to find is that there is a mass conscious agreement.

I agree,  many "experts" claim that there are many extra dimensions that exist, yet none of these "experts" can give proof that the first three spatial dimensions are real things that exist and have an influence on other objects.